some bows shoots sideways? - Guild Wars Forums

kaikai601 · Jan 10, 2006, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Hi i've seen some people using bows that shoots sideways instead of the traditional ways...which type of bow shoots like that?

striderkaaru · Jan 10, 2006, 12:57 AM // 00:57

it's only the animation of female characters that hold the bows horizontally.

Pops · Jan 10, 2006, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Its also the male animation for Pin Down.

strcpy · Jan 10, 2006, 06:02 AM // 06:02

In real life? None if you want to shoot good.

You can with what are called "traditional" bows. If you want to get into a big argument on traditional bow message boards ask what "traditional" means as there are "purist", people who really lived and shot the bows from the time period that is supposed to be "traditional" (what we now call "traditional" was called "Not accurate, don't do that" - even the Gods of traditional did many of the things not allowed by the purist, they just pretend that they did not and get angry when you point it out), and people like me who just shoot. I ilke shooting the traditional bow for a few reasons (simplicity, challenge, and I also make my own bows and I do not have the equipment to make anything other than primitive self bows), but I don't fool myself into thinking that is they way they shot in the 1920's-1950's.

The male ranger holding the bow at a slight angle is probably the most typical for one of the styles of shooting (what is called instinctive - you get a better view of where the arrow is pointing), though he uses more of an angle than most I've seen. You only hold the bow sideways like the female if you have to (say sitting on the ground or anytime the one of the limbs is going to hit something) and if you are on a TV show, I guess it looks neat or something (much like holding the pistol sideways instead of straight up or down).

Shooting a bow accurate is all about doing the same thing over and over - you can't really twist you body into a repeatable position like that (at the very least you can not do it *as* repeatable as more straight up and down). You can good enough for close hunting accuracy, but not for longer shots or if you want good groups.

It's really a shame as the rest of the animation is pretty good, she gets her bow arm in the right position, string arm has good form, good anchor, and really great backtension (something few that do not shoot archery notice and is usually wrong in attack animation). They got all the subtle stuff right and goofed the main visable thing. Doesn't matter though, still have to have a ranger as one of toons and I like the female model.

adventchildren · Jan 10, 2006, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Thats how gangsters shoot their bows.

Hockster · Jan 10, 2006, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Pretty much have to when your character is this tall:
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And the bow is this tall:

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_

jimmy_logic · Jan 10, 2006, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Ok that previous post is lost on me...

strcpy · Jan 10, 2006, 10:08 AM // 10:08

He is saying if the bow you shoot is long enough that the bottom limb touches the ground then you have to cant the bow (be a *really* long bow, double your hieght to your shoulder). Except of course we are talking holding it horizontal so I guess you need to be about 2 inches tall to have to do that. Otherwise just a little bit of angle will suffice (my father shoots a long bow he has to do that with).

Hockster · Jan 10, 2006, 11:38 AM // 11:38

My ranger uses the smallest size available. Her feathered longbow appears to be about 2 feet taller, hence the need for the horizontal firing position.

And I actually like the look of that animation.:

twicefeuled · Jan 10, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by adventchildren

Thats how gangsters shoot their bows.

lol, good one. Once in a while, after targeting something thats on the move, my E/Mo will fire off a flare or fireball at a crazy angle, fwiw

Epinephrine · Jan 10, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

In real life? None if you want to shoot good.

I disagree; as a longbow archer I always cant my bow, and it is not hard to get an easily repeatable cant. Canting on traditional bows is helpful for several reasons, though I agree that with a properly spined modern arrow and a bow with sights you can achieve much greater accuracy than a traditional longbow. Given that these archers are firing a shot per 2 seconds (or faster) instinctive is likely the way to shoot, and the canted bow has many advantages in this type of situation, the least of which is that the arrow is less likely to fall off the shelf with movement.

King's Spectre · Jan 10, 2006, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Oh boy.. looks like we have a shoot-off in the making!

Good stuff.

thedonutman · Jan 10, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicefeuled

lol, good one. Once in a while, after targeting something thats on the move, my E/Mo will fire off a flare or fireball at a crazy angle, fwiw

yeah me too, i can flare at people without actually facing them , the fire just seems to appear on the side of one of the arms and then randomly flys out.....weird

Jetdoc · Jan 10, 2006, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

I can imagine the gangsta version of this...

"Yo ice imp dawg, you best give up the IDS before I bust an arrow in your arse..."

Hockster · Jan 10, 2006, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicefeuled

lol, good one. Once in a while, after targeting something thats on the move, my E/Mo will fire off a flare or fireball at a crazy angle, fwiw

That's the animation when a quick cast mod on a staff/wand kicks in. My necro uses the same sidearm type motion.

Valerius · Jan 10, 2006, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Female Rangers shoot bows horizontally

Male Rangers shoot bows vertically (except when using the skills Pin Down and Crippling Shot {E})

Lord Thud · Jan 10, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

He is saying if the bow you shoot is long enough that the bottom limb touches the ground then you have to cant the bow

My guy always pulls out a little step stool. He looks silly running around carrying it though so I switched to a short bow.

strcpy · Jan 11, 2006, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

I disagree; as a longbow archer I always cant my bow, and it is not hard to get an easily repeatable cant. Canting on traditional bows is helpful for several reasons, though I agree that with a properly spined modern arrow and a bow with sights you can achieve much greater accuracy than a traditional longbow. Given that these archers are firing a shot per 2 seconds (or faster) instinctive is likely the way to shoot, and the canted bow has many advantages in this type of situation, the least of which is that the arrow is less likely to fall off the shelf with movement.

You'll note that the archer in question is holding the bow horizontally. I too cant my bow about 10 degrees or so, I shoot instictive (if I'm going to use a point of aim might as well have a scope and be done with it) and it really helps with getting my eye directly over the arrow. I also made a point of a cant being OK, I said the male ranger doesn't look too bad. The female is the one that holds it horizontal.

Have you ever seen a 240+ NFAA shooter with the bow at much of a cant? I haven't, 10-15 degrees is about it, same with the winners circle in 3D. Heck, even 45 degrees is strange (I have seen a very very few, though it's rare enough they stand out in my mind), let alone 90. The only place I have ever seen that form the female rangers use is in video games or people who know no better.

Look at the screenshot hockster posted - surely you are not claiming that is proper positioning of a longbow? It's OK for a video game, but in real life that would be a horrid form to try and learn to shoot from, if you ever could even be consistent with it. The few times I've tried to shoot like that it is actually painful.

Assuming my attachment works correctly, you can see I have a slight cant:

Epinephrine · Jan 11, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Oh, I'll agree that the cant is excessive in the image. I cant more than you do, though it's been years since I was shooting regularly (back in university, ugggh, that's starting to seem like another life).

I don't however fire while running, jumping and dodging ferocious beasts, nor do I try to fire at high RoF; as well, target practice is typically vs a round target, while battle archery is versus a vertically elongated target typically, so the cant helps transfer a horizontal error to a vertical one. Even comparing to traditional forms of archery is difficult, as most examples we're familiar with are western (Longbow for example) done in large masses for large scale combat, or for hunting; skirmish archery is a bit different I would imagine. Of course, no military in the world used bows up close when they were in melee, so there is no reference! The closest to this would be something like mongol archery, as it was often performed from horseback, with plenty of motion - and even looking at images of horseback archery they don't cant the bow 80 degrees. So I'll agree - excessive canting in GW.

The point about repeatability is exactly right - you need to be able to hold the bow the same way and use the same release with each shot; modern bows often use a clicker to let you know when you reach the draw length (this is a small sping that clicks when the tip of the target arrow eases past it) and some even use mechanical releases. For me, I get repeatable draw length by drawing the web of my thumb/index finger to the hook of my jaw; even with a bit of cant I am tall enough to get a decent draw that way; I suspect my cant is about 20 degrees (I'm holding a pencil and lining up with my office door...) but I'm over 6 feet so I get a good draw length even with a bit of a cant to it. I don't have a shot of me seriously shooting, but I have a halloween photo from the office party... No cant in the photo, but I'm also not shooting (nor in shooting form), and in a narrow office hallway to boot... but I get to show off my 1 piece yew bow this way

Jan 10, 2006, 12:54 AM // 00:54	#1
kaikai601 Pre-Searing Cadet Join Date: Jan 2006 Profession: R/Me	some bows shoots sideways? Hi i've seen some people using bows that shoots sideways instead of the traditional ways...which type of bow shoots like that?

Jan 11, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45	#19
Epinephrine Master of Beasts Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ottawa, Canada Guild: Servants of Fortuna [SoF]	Oh, I'll agree that the cant is excessive in the image. I cant more than you do, though it's been years since I was shooting regularly (back in university, ugggh, that's starting to seem like another life). I don't however fire while running, jumping and dodging ferocious beasts, nor do I try to fire at high RoF; as well, target practice is typically vs a round target, while battle archery is versus a vertically elongated target typically, so the cant helps transfer a horizontal error to a vertical one. Even comparing to traditional forms of archery is difficult, as most examples we're familiar with are western (Longbow for example) done in large masses for large scale combat, or for hunting; skirmish archery is a bit different I would imagine. Of course, no military in the world used bows up close when they were in melee, so there is no reference! The closest to this would be something like mongol archery, as it was often performed from horseback, with plenty of motion - and even looking at images of horseback archery they don't cant the bow 80 degrees. So I'll agree - excessive canting in GW. The point about repeatability is exactly right - you need to be able to hold the bow the same way and use the same release with each shot; modern bows often use a clicker to let you know when you reach the draw length (this is a small sping that clicks when the tip of the target arrow eases past it) and some even use mechanical releases. For me, I get repeatable draw length by drawing the web of my thumb/index finger to the hook of my jaw; even with a bit of cant I am tall enough to get a decent draw that way; I suspect my cant is about 20 degrees (I'm holding a pencil and lining up with my office door...) but I'm over 6 feet so I get a good draw length even with a bit of a cant to it. I don't have a shot of me seriously shooting, but I have a halloween photo from the office party... No cant in the photo, but I'm also not shooting (nor in shooting form), and in a narrow office hallway to boot... but I get to show off my 1 piece yew bow this way Last edited by Epinephrine; Jan 11, 2006 at 05:04 PM // 17:04..

Jan 10, 2006, 12:57 AM // 00:57	#2
striderkaaru Desert Nomad Join Date: Aug 2005 Guild: Scars Meadows [SMS], Retired Officer Profession: W/	it's only the animation of female characters that hold the bows horizontally.

Jan 10, 2006, 05:31 AM // 05:31	#3
Pops Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Aug 2005 Guild: Fa Doy Toy Profession: W/Mo	Its also the male animation for Pin Down.

Jan 10, 2006, 06:02 AM // 06:02	#4
strcpy Desert Nomad Join Date: Jul 2005 Guild: One of Many [ONE]	In real life? None if you want to shoot good. You can with what are called "traditional" bows. If you want to get into a big argument on traditional bow message boards ask what "traditional" means as there are "purist", people who really lived and shot the bows from the time period that is supposed to be "traditional" (what we now call "traditional" was called "Not accurate, don't do that" - even the Gods of traditional did many of the things not allowed by the purist, they just pretend that they did not and get angry when you point it out), and people like me who just shoot. I ilke shooting the traditional bow for a few reasons (simplicity, challenge, and I also make my own bows and I do not have the equipment to make anything other than primitive self bows), but I don't fool myself into thinking that is they way they shot in the 1920's-1950's. The male ranger holding the bow at a slight angle is probably the most typical for one of the styles of shooting (what is called instinctive - you get a better view of where the arrow is pointing), though he uses more of an angle than most I've seen. You only hold the bow sideways like the female if you have to (say sitting on the ground or anytime the one of the limbs is going to hit something) and if you are on a TV show, I guess it looks neat or something (much like holding the pistol sideways instead of straight up or down). Shooting a bow accurate is all about doing the same thing over and over - you can't really twist you body into a repeatable position like that (at the very least you can not do it as repeatable as more straight up and down). You can good enough for close hunting accuracy, but not for longer shots or if you want good groups. It's really a shame as the rest of the animation is pretty good, she gets her bow arm in the right position, string arm has good form, good anchor, and really great backtension (something few that do not shoot archery notice and is usually wrong in attack animation). They got all the subtle stuff right and goofed the main visable thing. Doesn't matter though, still have to have a ranger as one of toons and I like the female model.

Jan 10, 2006, 07:06 AM // 07:06	#5
adventchildren Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Oct 2005	Thats how gangsters shoot their bows.

Jan 10, 2006, 07:47 AM // 07:47	#6
Hockster Banned Join Date: Jul 2005	Pretty much have to when your character is this tall: _ . . . _ And the bow is this tall: _ . . . . . . . _

Jan 10, 2006, 09:45 AM // 09:45	#7
jimmy_logic Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Sep 2005 Profession: R/	Ok that previous post is lost on me...

Jan 10, 2006, 10:08 AM // 10:08	#8
strcpy Desert Nomad Join Date: Jul 2005 Guild: One of Many [ONE]	He is saying if the bow you shoot is long enough that the bottom limb touches the ground then you have to cant the bow (be a really long bow, double your hieght to your shoulder). Except of course we are talking holding it horizontal so I guess you need to be about 2 inches tall to have to do that. Otherwise just a little bit of angle will suffice (my father shoots a long bow he has to do that with).

Jan 10, 2006, 11:38 AM // 11:38	#9
Hockster Banned Join Date: Jul 2005	My ranger uses the smallest size available. Her feathered longbow appears to be about 2 feet taller, hence the need for the horizontal firing position. And I actually like the look of that animation.:

Jan 10, 2006, 06:02 PM // 18:02	#12
King's Spectre Krytan Explorer Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Syracuse, NY, USA Guild: The Amazon Basin (AB) Profession: W/	Oh boy.. looks like we have a shoot-off in the making! Good stuff.

Jan 10, 2006, 08:57 PM // 20:57	#16
Valerius Desert Nomad Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Canada Profession: R/	Female Rangers shoot bows horizontally Male Rangers shoot bows vertically (except when using the skills Pin Down and Crippling Shot {E})